The other day I came across this story about how a small school district in Texas, the LaPoynor school district, had been raising a Christian flag up the school flagpole every day. When challenged on it, and told it violates the separation of church and state and was thus unconstitutional, they, reluctantly, took it down. However, after a great deal of protests by many of their students the school district came up with another idea that would still allow them to fly the Christian flag most days. From the Texas Tribunes article:
“After the controversy about the Christian flag, the district formed a group of students to serve as a committee that selects what flag flies on that third pole. The group is made up of the student from each grade level with the highest grade-point average and meets on a monthly basis under the supervision of a district parent, according to Superintendent Marsha Mills.
The group has chosen different flags, including one for Breast Cancer Awareness Month and one with the district’s mascot. It raises money to purchase any new flags, Mills said. But the Christian flag seems to be a frequent choice.”
There are several important problems with this reasoning though.
First, the equating of Breast Cancer Awareness and mascots with religion. Religion and religious beliefs have a much more emotional and greater importance to people and their lives than the other causes mentioned. It is why there is a freedom of religion. It is why wars have been fought in which religion played a prominent role. Religious belief is why people were and still are persecuted, exiled, martyred, and killed. Supporting Breast Cancer awareness is not and has never been a reason for such.
Further, this guise of fairness and democracy is actually a disguise. One that hides a push for making one religious view dominant over all others. Consider, how many Jews, Muslims, atheists, Hindus, and other religious beliefs do you think there are in the student body? Some, yes. But not enough to have the numbers to vote against the raising of the flag. Further, given the sentiment within the school and community, and in the face of possible/probable harassment, condemnation, bullying, would they dare do so? Think about the meaning in practical terms of those who differ of the following statement from the article:
But back in East Texas, there does not appear to be enough concern over the flag for students to mount such a battle. Parents in the district say they are in support of the Christian flag and do not know of anyone who is upset about the religious symbol.
“I believe in Jesus Christ, and I would not let my children go to school somewhere that does not believe in Jesus Christ,” said Ashley Hamby Brauher, who has three children in the district. “I support the flag 100%.
This tactic of using voting to overcome Constitutional Rights, especially the separation of church and state, is one that is also in play in another area in schools – counselors. The Texas Legislature recently passed a law allowing school districts to vote on allowing chaplains to serve as school counselors. Chaplains who are not required to be trained as counselors. However, as many of its supporters have said, since they are helping bring God back to the school they will obviously improve it, and reduce the amount of violence and drugs. Their words reveal their real motivation, the promotion of a particular religion.
This all illustrates a very basic and deep misunderstanding of what rights are and how they relate to democracy. Rights are there to put limits on democracies. Limits that protect the words and actions and lives of citizens. This protection cannot be overridden by voting. Otherwise, it becomes mob rules, with those, the often many those, who are not part of that mob either politically, religiously, socially, becoming its victims. At best relegated to second class citizenry in which they are not free to speak their minds, to associate, to promote their candidates and views, to practice their faith or lack of faith. At worst, they are persecuted, jailed, exiled, or killed.
Those of us living in the United States all identify ourselves as Americans. It is an identity that is supposed to transcend religious belief , social status, politics, and the rest. By the way, transcending does not mean that it is more important to a person than a particular belief, only that they can hold and practice that belief and also be an American. This is one reason the separation of church and state is so important. Otherwise, anyone who is not a Christian would not be a true American. You do not foster unity and identity by excluding unnecessarily.
Here is a small personal example from my wife of how it feels when it doesn’t. It happened just after 9/11. She was working for the city of Fort Worth at the time and the city decided to hold a memorial service to both provide support for its employees and to foster unity in the face of this tragedy.
She and a couple of her workplace friends attended. One of them was Hindu. American diversity in action. Until a pastor took the stage to lead everyone in a prayer. It was a very Christian prayer, complete with references to the Bible and Jesus and ending in an in Jesus’s name. No other prayers were given.
Both she and her Hindu friend felt excluded. They were shocked at this and no longer felt a part of a greater whole. That their beliefs were seemingly not as important and were not as American as this particular version of Christianity. They seemingly did not need to be supported by those who were the right sort of Americans.
Perhaps a small thing you might think. But of such small things larger attitudes are created. That cultures are created. Exclusionary ones that will eventually lead to persecution. Imagine how such small things accumulate – Christian flags at school, Christian prayers at school, untrained pastors as school counselors, and so forth. The message received that it is only Christians who are allowed this and no others.
It is through such things that us becomes divided into us and them. And them eventually become seen as a threat to the state since they are not of the same religion as the state. A look at history clearly shows this. Instead of a United States of America we would become a United Christian States of America with anyone who was not Christian not considered a good American and viewed with suspicion.
And this is why Rights always trump democracy. And always must.
Of course, if rights must be protected from the whims, thoughts, and actions of the majority, that brings up the question of what are rights? Interestingly enough, that is the subject of my next blog.
Flying a Christian flag does not violate the separation of church and state.
That the separation of church and state is yet another atheist lie.
The 1st Amendment is all about freedom of speech and religion. This means that the state cannot mandate by law or dictate a state religion.
Schools raising religious flags is an expression of the 1st Amendment right to freedom of speech and religion.
If this were a private school or an individual’s home you would be right. However, a public school is a government building, a government organization. And as you say the government cannot dictate a state religion. Therefore this violates the separation of church and state and is unconstitutional.
Let me ask, how would you feel should they decide to raise a Muslim flag?
Bill, Public schools are local buildings and do not belong to the federal government. But so what if they were? We the People have freedom of speech and religion ESPECIALLY in government buildings.
Actually with the passage of the 14th amendment these rights apply to all governments, federal, state, local. It is a government building raiding that flag. Not individuals.
You did not answer my question by the way – would you be OK if they decided to raise a Muslim flag?
The 1st Amendment limits the power of any government concerning freedom of speech and religion.
Therefore, law abiding Muslims could put up a flag at a school celebrating Islam or even the town of West Outer Bumflock, Egypt.
Public schools are Godless and leftist indoctrination centers these days. Ironically, the Catholic high school where I teach is apolitical but VERY Catholic. The students engage in some form of Catholic worship Monday-Friday.
Let me ask, do you think the citizens of the town mentioned in the article in my blog would allow Muslims to run a flag up the school pole?
Now, if the flagpole was the property of the individual student that would be fine. However, the flag pole is not an individual possession but the property of the school, which is government. Therefor not constitutional.
as for the Catholic School, good. No problem with that at all. It is not a government institution, but a private one. So, they can worship every day and twice on Wednesday and it would be just fine.
And public schools are not Godless in the sense of individual student’s beliefs. They can and do bring Bibles, talk and pray, etc. It is just the school employees – teachers, administrators, etc – who cannot lead prayers and such.
Bill, I am sorry to say, but you have what Plato called, “a lie in soul.” The 1st Amendment is so clear. And what you are saying is so false. I refute you and you just blithely move the goal post, which is a logical fallacy. There just is no way to further respond to your nonsense.
You are a bully who can’t stand that people believe in God so you seek to control their expression of their speech and religion, no matter what.
That is straitjacket and rubber room stuff, Bill. But you think it is right as rain.
America’s Founders had people like you in mind when they wrote the US Constitution and the Bill of Rights.
I agree that the First Amendment is clear. However, you keep repeating about freedom and I keep pointing out that the school is a government entity and that the flagpole is government property. Seems pretty clear and simple.
And I am a bully and liar. Not enough to be simply wrong in your view.
And not sure how I am controlling people’s expression. They can fun a flag up their own flagpole it they like. Just not have the government do so on government property. I am fine with your Catholic School. I am fine with students bringing Bibles to public school, with them praying in public school etc. I am just not forcing a Jewish/Muslim/Hindu,/Atheist/etc child to walk under a banner of a religion they do not believe in while they are in a public school, a government entity meant to protect their rights as much as a Christian’s.
Trump WIN ’24/47.
Not sure how your comment is relevant to my blog? I did not write about trump nor the upcoming presidential elections.
Theology attempts to dictate to the masses “WHAT” they should think & believe. Religion guilty of many and repeated war crimes against the species of Man-Kind. This track record hardly qualifies these vile disgusting authority religious figures – the right to dictate “WHAT” people, through the generations, should “THINK” or “BELIEVE”. Both Xtianity and Islam guilty of the Shoah. Theology stinks of death. Whether it be the Nicene Creed or the strict Monotheism of Islam. Both examples: trash abominations of faith.
The tohor commandment which established the mitzva for a Cohen to marry a virgin. Equally, Leviticus 21:14, the reverse tohor commandment prohibits the Cohen to marry a widow, or divorced or raped woman.
The Torah defines faith as: the pursuit of Justice. Not the belief in this or that God(s). The counterfeit new testament duplicates the sin of the Golden Calf as likewise does the Muslim koran! Aaron translated the 1st commandment Sinai revelation of the living Spirit Name, to the “WORD” אלהים. Bad translations, as useful as tits on a boar hog.
The term Golden Calf, a word-metaphor. The Torah speaks in the language of Man. The bible corrupt translations understand this word-metaphor literally. In Hebrew such an obvious error known as טיפש פשט roughly translated as “bird brained stupidity”. Aaron translated the living Spirit Name, revealed in the first Sinai commandment to the “WORD” אלהים|Gods. This living Spirit Name simply NOT a word that the lips of Man can easily form and readily pronounce; as if this living Spirit Name compares to a graven image, or an idol chiselled out from a block of wood or stone.
Both fraud scriptures – new testament and koran – translate this living Spirit Name, which Human lips cannot pronounce due to the fact that the Human mouth cannot articulate living Spirits as if this living Spirits exist on an equal plane as words written on a chalk board. The translated words for God, they profane both the 1st & 2nd Sinai commandments. Word translations of the living Spirit Name, whether Lord, Allah, Jehova, Yahweh, etc., these “Golden Calves” all and equally worship other Gods. Just as the theological belief decreed by Islam’s strict Monotheism violates the 2nd Sinai Commandment. If only one God, then the 2nd Commandment – totally in vain.
The fraud, new testament and koran, both stand upon cracked and utterly worthless foundations. The lie: ”sister religions”, nothing other than complete and total non-sense religious rhetoric propaganda; on par with parents telling their young children that Santa Claus will give them their hearts-desires on that pagan Yule – winter solstice - famous festival day of celebration. Or the belief system that promises that some imaginary God will return and take believers to heaven in the future. Fanatically held beliefs can no more convert a lie into the truth than can Medieval alchemists turn lead into gold, by means of some imaginary mythical Philosopher’s stone.
Partly agree, much more partly disagree. however, let me ask this – if I am reading you right you think the Torah is the correct one and theology. If so, do you think it should be promoted in public schools?
The Torah a Constitutional document. The Talmud serves as the model of common law courtrooms in Israel. Theology a non Jewish fetish.
Law schools most definitely should study the Talmud. The Talmud teaches a unique logic system totally unknown to non Jews. Its inductive reasoning methodolgies totally different and unique from either the Greek logic or late 18th Century German logic developed by Hegel which so influenced Karl Marx. Logic, a University level course.
The Talmud is a foundation writing for a religion – Judaism. To teach it as you would wish in the public schools, a government body, would violate the US Constitution. It would violate the separation of church and state.
No. The Framers of the Talmud, codified in about 450 CE in Iraq, wrote this work for it to serve as the model for a court system when Jews reconquered our homelands. God never once found anywhere in the Talmud.
I never mentioned God. And a work does not have to mention God to be foundational to a religion. As you stated in your comment – “…wrote this work for it to serve as the model for a court system when Jews reconquered our homelands”. It is a foundational document for Judaism. And so cannot be promoted in our public school system.
Let me ask, do you think it would be OK for Muslims and Christians to promote their religious beliefs in the public schools?
Justice has nothing to do with a theology belief system about God this or that. Justice centers upon lateral common law courtrooms imposing fair compensation of damages inflicted upon others. Law schools require an education in law. Muslims and Xtians preach belief theologies. Talmud teaches the logic of comparing similar case/rule cases one to another. Learning how to compare similar cases. English literature learns by way of making comparisons and contrasts. You have no problelm with the study of literature in public schools.
Does not Talmud have its source in the precepts, ordinances, laws given down to Moses as elucidated in the Torah? Also, let me ask, who hands down judgements and decides cases – juries or Rabbis.
Talmud, which means “learning” contains 2 Parts. Primary source Mishna and Secondary Source known as the Gemarah. Its a common law legal system that learns by way of precedents.
Prior to the American Revolution in 1776 England and France fought wars. The 7 years war for example. The British navy required sailors. So it felt free to board American ships while sailing on the High Seas “international waters”, and impress American sailors to serve for 25 years in the British navy. Naturally the Americans took the British navy to court.
The famous “Star Courts” tried those cases and ruled in favor of the British navy. The American revolutionaries responded to these corrupt courts whose judges received their salaries from the State by establishing a phasi-lateral Jury system in American jurisprudence.
The Talmud 2000 years earlier established lateral common law courtrooms. A lateral court different from a vertical court. In the case of the latter the State pays the salaries of the Justices of the Court as well as the prosecuting attorneys. The American legal system, despite having Juries, operates a vertical court system just as do the British.
The Talmudic model by contrast establishes lateral courts. A national legal insurance system: where by the people pay a monthly premium, and this premium maintains the court system during times when no case stands before the docks of the lateral common law courts.
When two conflicting parties come before a lateral court, they pay the initial court costs. The person who loses the case then charged the closing costs. This guarantees that court cases – not prolonged because a prolong court case increases the closing courtroom charges imposed upon the loser.
The State does not pay the salaries – NOT of the Justices NOR of the prosecuting attorney. The original meaning for the word “rabbi”, a court Justice.
During the Middle Ages when Jews endured the oppression of exile, like the Palestinians refugees today, rabbis forbidden to sit as State courtroom justices. Therefore the meaning of “rabbi” switch from a judicial judge to mean a religious leader. The two not the same.
My point is that Talmud law is based upon a religion. Which means that promoting the Talmud in a public school is unconstitutional.
You are arguing the merits of Talmud law. And, as you pointed out, it has some significant differences from what we have in America. However, I am discussing constitutionality. And regardless of merit, it is based upon a religion and religious history. Which, under the US Constitution, means it cannot be promoted by the government. A public school is a government function and so it cannot be promoted in the public school.
Talmud defines halacha which scholars in the Middle Ages converted into a religion. The notion that the Talmud bases itself upon religion, compares to putting the ass before the cart.
The Torah originally constructed to serve as the Constitution of the Jewish Republic, The Talmud common law not based upon religion. Just that simple.
So, not based on religion. Sorry, that shows a profound ignorance on your part. It is based upon the Torah along with hundreds of years of Oral tradition from within Judaism. Yeah, it is religious based.
According to who? A reform, conservative, or orthodox rabbi? LOL. Israel a secualar state. I am an atheist praise God. LOL
From the Jewish Encyclopedia, among many, many other sources.
https://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/14216-talmudic-law#anchor2
“The Torah, revealed by God, was the basis of the code; and God Himself was consequently the Supreme Source of law. The Talmud, like the Torah, drew no distinction between religious and secular law, thus conforming to the general custom of ancient peoples, especially in the East. One result of this peculiarity was the wide range and close articulation of the Talmudic system, since the commandments of religion influenced secular law, and modified civil relations in so far as any infraction of them was punishable. It is impossible, therefore, to differentiate sharply between religious and secular law.”
And no, Israel is most definitely not a secular state. It is a religious one. As for you being an atheist- that’s nice. I don’t’ recall us discussing your religious beliefs nor me making any claim about what they might be.
The Jewish Encyclopedia comes from Conservative/Historical Judaism. Traditionally the Talmud rejects the theory which defines Historical Judaism premise. Talmud which is 1/4th aggadic in nature teaches mussar rather than history. A subtle but distinct nuance difference. A prophet, defined as a person who commands mussar. Why does this critical definition of “prophet” puissant? Mussar applies equally to all generations of Israel. Whereas history “talks about”, like לשון הרע/slander “talks about”. Events of ancient history viewed as actual history does not compare to mussar instruction which a Jew can apply directly to how he lives his life in this world.
General Patton learned history based upon the premise that: “he actually lived and experienced those battles” – – – talking through common law day and night different than talking about common law.
I live in Israel, the vast majority of the voting democracy – secular Jews.
As I said in regards to the Talmud, the Jewish Encyclopedia is only one of all the sources I looked at. Here are a few others.
https://dal.ca.libguides.com/c.php?g=732817&p=5266663
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/293198666_Is_Talmudic_Law_a_Religious_Legal_System_A_Provisional_Analysis
https://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/the-oral-law-talmud-and-mishna
But consider that it is based upon the Torah – a religious work and a foundational document of the religion of Judaism. It arose within the religion of Judaism and was practiced by Jews. It is a religious based legal system.
As for Israel, whether those voting are secular or not really doesn’t matter in determining whether a government is secular or not. How the government is structured and how it is identified is what is important.
Israel defines itself as a Jewish state. Explicitly so. It was created for Jews and in its declaration of independence states that it is a “Jewish state”. For comparison look at the declaration and US Constitution – it makes no reference to being a religious state.
Further, the national anthem – Hatikvah – refers to the Jewish heart and to Zion. No mention of any other religious group – not Muslims, not Christians, not atheists. Even though all are citizens of Israel too.
This is further reinforced by the Nation State bill passed in 2018 that made Jewish religious symbols also symbols of the state – The menorah as the state symbol, the star of David on the flag, etc. Then the active search and promotion of Jews to become Israeli citizens that is not done for any other group. No other group can become citizens so easily, and they usually do not get financial support in doing so.
Another factor reinforcing this religious identity is that fact that marriages within Israel can only be performed by religious authorities and only between two people of the same faith. No Jewish/Christian marriages for example can be performed within Israel. For interfaith couples to marry and have their marriage recognized by the government of Israel they have to go outside of Israel and get married.
There is more, especially when looked at the treatment of non – Jews and Jews within Israel. But Israel is at its core a religious state. That means its conflict with its identity as a democracy is going to eventually cause it to choose between one or the other identity.
The Framers of the Torah intended for it to function as the Constitution of the Republic of Tribes. The Restoration of the Torah as the Constitution of the Republic – an on going struggle.
As stated earlier, the exiled Jewry of the Middle Ages, they interpreted the Torah as a religious document rather than as a Constitutional/political document b/c those refugee Jews at that time had no nation of their own.
Zion – the seat of the Great Sanhedrin court. The Torah concept of Moshiach knows nothing of king Shlomo’s Temple. Rather the Moshiach restores the Federal Court system known as the Cities of Refuge/Small Sanhedrin Federal Courts!
The Menorah represents the oath brit dedications made on the 6 Festivals and Shabbat as represented by the 7 branch candlestick. Israel came out of the judicial oppression of Egypt to conquer the land of Canaan in order to impose a just judicial courts which make fair compensation of damages to those who suffer damages from others. Justice has nothing to do with religion. Not in a box Not with a fox, Not Here nor there Not anywhere.
At first I wasn’t going to reply and allow you to have the last, albeit incorrect, word. However, I am curious. Do you think the early Jewish state was a democracy? I ask because of your repeated use of the word Republic in describing it.
A republic not necessarily a democracy. Ancient Greek city states formed a Greek Republic. But Sparta most definitely not a democracy.
I believe you are referring to the Peloponnesian League. That was not a Republic. It was coalition of city states making decision in regards to war, peace, or alliance and created in light of the threat to them from the Persian invasions. What you have with the Talmud and the “constitution” it provided goes much much further than those issues.
So, no Republic would not be the appropriate term. Republics are a form of democracy. And as you recognized these Jewish communities were not democracies.
Incorrect. The 12 tribes made a brit alliance/Republic, The founding fathers of the United states based upon the example of the ancient Israel brit republic did the same thing with the 13 colonies.
I am very familiar with the creation of the American Constitution and government. While they referred to a great many sources in regards to governments and constitutions, they never referred to the Torah, to the Talmud or to the Bible.
Now, possibly the twelve tribes made an alliance. But it was not a Republic.
Most definitely a republic. Commonwealth another term for republic. First commonwealth the alliance of the 12 Tribes. Brit means alliance. The translation of brit into covenant as absurd as day aint night.
Biden faces a Presidential election in less than a Year’s time. He’s doing horribly bad in the pre-election polling today. The Gaza Abomination Oct 7th War, it compares to the Covid-19 mass epidemic which destroyed the 3 amazing years wherein under President Trump’s fabulous leadership the President Made America Great Again.
I have worked in Gaza. Plus, my moving company assisted Israelis out of Gaza, in compliance with PM Sharon’s leadership tremendous decision. My moving trucks did not fly the orange ribbons of protest to PM Sharon’s unilateral decision. I witnessed the horrors of looking down from the edge of the cliff of that near catastrophic Civil War which took Israelis to the brink of a Lebanese or Syrian total destruction of our young nation.
Israel gave up all of Gaza to set up a Hong Kong model Island Palestinian State back in 2005. We gave them the famous Gush Katif organic farms and several amazing milk farms (assets which i personally saw with my own eyes) which consisted of an engineered rotating slab of cement, which floated upon a thin layer of water, which permitted milk-cows to independently depart from their milk stations, and return back to their pens.
This revolutionary milking methodology permitted, in about the same time-period of milking, approximately double the amount of cows in the same time-period, as it took in the standard T-bone milking system set-up, used across the world by dairy farms. These tremendous assets the Palestinians despised and immediately destroyed!
In the 2006 elections Hamas threw the PA, ie the Olso Accords out the window! Between 2007 to 2024 Hamas has attacked Israel four times resulting in Wars. The Hamas Charter calls for the total destruction of Israelis from the River to the Sea! Now we Israelis no longer feel generous toward these dune-coon rag-headed dhimmi Arab refugee pigs.
OK. You comment was totally not relevant to the topic of Democracy and Rights. Next one that is not on topic gets deleted on this thread.
Democracy and Rights … like the corrupt 2020 Presidential elections, or the Al Jazeera “reporter” who served on par with the UNRA employees who attacked Israel on the Oct 7th abomination?
I deleted you video due to it not being relevant to this subject at all. This comment though at least referenced elections. So, what is your evidence that the 2020 Presidential election was corrupt? All the evidence I have seen shows that it was fair and well run overall.
I live in Israel not in the US. But without the slightest doubt President Trump views the 2020 elections as corrupted. I accept his opinion over the 3.5 Year Russia-Gate Democrat fraud.
Oh, there is no doubt that he states over and over that the 2020 elections were fraudulent. And there is no doubt about your opinion. However, I tend to go with evidence and facts. And the evidence and facts show that the 2020 election was a fair election and that trump lost.
Framed facts no facts. Like the 3+ years Russia gate fraud just lies.
If you think that there is evidence of fraud please provide me with the evidence of such. What I have seen shows no fraud anywhere near the scale that trump is claiming. So, where is your evidence?
The almost 4 years of Russia gate bull shit moooed by mad cow Maddow and the MSM propaganda press.
So no evidence for your claim on your part. Until you provide such any further comments from you on this blog will be deleted.
Oh just FYI, individuals can set up business agreements, marriages, and dispute resolution under their particular religions laws if they so choose here in the US. Jews under the Talmudic law, Catholics under Catholic law, Muslims under Sharia laws and so forth – as long as their specific rulings do not violate the US Constitution and laws.
What is the difference between the Torah, Talmud, and Mishnah?
Marc Lipshitz Been involved in counter missionary work for 20+ years
First you need to understand what the Mishnah is. When Moshe received the Torah on Har Sinai he spent forty days and nights studying it and getting taught the performance and explanations of it. Thus when he came down he had two things- the written Torah and the explanations and details of its performance. The written Torah is what is also known as the “Chamishe Sifrei Torah”, commonly translated as “The Five Books of Moses”.
The explanations and details of performance were only passed on orally and are commonly referred to as the Oral Torah. Before the Bar Kochba revolt which resulted in the massive exile of the Jews 80 or so years after the destruction of the Second Temple Rabbi Akivah organized the oral law into a more organized and easier to teach format.
After the Bar Kochba revolt with the bulk of the Jews in exile in different places (the difference to the prior Babylonian exile was that there the bulk of the Jews were in one place, albeit outside of Israel) there was a fear that the oral Torah would be forgotten or altered, so Rebbi Yehudah HaNasi, the head of the Sanhedrin at the time, compiled the Oral Torah into the form we have today and we refer to this written compilation of the Oral Torah as the Mishnah.
However, there was discussion on its application, philosophy, ethics, what to do in different situations, the trying to grasp the essence of the law so it could be utilized in different, unenvisaged situations, the mysticism and the practical. These discussions were recorded in the Gemorah. This is how we get to the Talmud- it consists of two main parts- the Mishnah and then the associated Gemorah to that Mishnah.
In modern editions there are also multiple commentaries, footnotes, cross references to passages in the Torah, prophets and scriptures when they are mentioned etc. Typically it is published in 20 volumes- the ArtScroll translation is 73 volumes! It is not something that you just read but something that requires intense study and a teacher so you know how to study and understand the methodology utilized in the Talmud.
Moshe Kerr: No. Totally incorrect. Rabbi Yechuda named his Mishna based upon the בנין אב/precedent that Moshe Rabbeinu named דברים the Mishna Torah — which means common law. The Mishna codified by Rabbi Yechuda in 210 ce follows the משנה תורה common law model established by the Book of דברים. Common law legal system stand upon precedents. The Hebrew for precedent: בנין אב.
The Gemara, compiled by a later set of scholars AFTER Rabbi Yechuda “sealed” the Mishna, based upon the precedents of the sealing of the T’NaCH, caused Rav Ashi and Rav Ravina to seal the Gemara in about 450 ce. The purpose of sealing this Oral Torah methodology of common law, to prevent a perversion of the seal masoret/traditions from counterfeit imposters like the New Testament replacement theology to pervert the seal masoret/traditions unto tumah avoda zarah.
A second primary purpose of sealing the masoret/traditions: that all down stream generations of Israel inherit the identical masoret, thereby preventing an equal Av tumah avoda zarah commonly known as ירידות הדורות – understood that later generations cannot dispute the rulings made by earlier generations. This Av-tumah avoda zarah collapses when confronted with Oral Torah logic which validates that no one generation enjoys a monopoly of Torah logic over later generations.
The correct understanding of ירידות הדורות refers to the idea of “domino effect”.
Talmud, which means learning (Yeshivot fail to learn Talmud, when they study Gemara.), the Gemara brings halachic precedents from across the Sha’s Bavli as precedents. The purpose of the precedents, the Common Law Baali Tosafot commentary/criticism of Rashi p’shat on the Talmud, fundamentally erred and failed to learn a halachic precedent to re-interpret משנה תורה the k’vanna of the language of the Home Mishna which the Gemara brings outside precedent halachic sources to re-interpret the k’vanna of the language of Rabbi Yechuda’s specific Mishna.
This failure of Reshonim scholarship went across the board, some Reshonim better than others. The B’hag, Rif, Rosh common law halachic commentaries, like the Baali Tosafot – correctly learned and understood the Gemara commentary to a specific Mishna as Common law. Not so the super-commentaries written on these excellent Reshonim scholarship of Talmudic common law. The later scholars confused and perverted Talmudic common law unto Roman statute law. Students in Yeshivot across the world, never receive any instruction which differentiates between T’NaCH/Talmudic common law from Roman statute law. A most basic and fundamental error. Which has plagued g’lut Jewry down through the Ages.
In like manner, and equally as bad: the Reshonim scholars abysmally failed to discern (One and All, they failed to make the מאי נפקא מינא הבדלה with discerns “like from like” the basis which observance of all Torah and halachic mitzvot most fundamentally require. A most basic and fundamental error. Which has plagued Jewry down through the Ages. The Av/toldot relationship between tohor time-oriented from positive & negative toldot commandments.
Even Rashi’s common law commentary to the Chumash (as opposed by his טיפש פשט reading of the Talmud. Rashi changed his sh’itta of p’shat as learned from to Chumash and contrasted by his sh’itta of p’shat made upon the Talmud! Reshonim scholarship disgracefully failed to note this fundamental contradiction in Rashi scholarship. Proof that the Reshonim learning had derailed itself and gone off-track. Why? Because the Reshonim and later rabbinic lackeys failed to understand how the concept of ירידות הדורות refuted the Xtian avoda zarah known as “Free Will”.
A colossal error made by a great Jewish leader: be it King Shlomo who built an assimilated Catholic Cathedral or the Rambam who perverted Talmudic common law unto Roman statute law. Once a great sage/leader worships avoda zarah, (Shlomo perverted the priority of establishment of Federal Great/Small Sanhedrin courtrooms as the k’vanna of building the Beit HaMikdash), the Av tumah of this perversion which validates the 2nd Sinai Commandment, all down-stream generations likewise pursue this Av-tumah avoda zarah abomination, from generation to generation to generation! Hence the concept of ירידות הדורות invalidates the Xtian dogmatism of “Free Will”.
The Torah mitzva of Moshiach does not learn from a NaCH source. Torah mitzvot learn from Torah sources. Why? Because Moshe Rabbeinu, the greatest of all prophets. The failure of Reshonim scholarship to correctly grasp how the Chumash learns, proof of the cursed existence of g’lut Jewry who lacked the wisdom to do mitzvot לשמה.
The Torah operates upon a most basic: Av/Toldot relationship. The Book of בראשית, together with the tohor time-oriented commandments codification known as the Siddur, commands Av tohor time-oriented commandments. “Time” not tied to a watch, but rather to crisis situations which threaten the chosen Cohen people with Shoah; like Akadat Yitzak, or the mitzva to remove the sciatic nerve! The latter explained by targum Uziel. Esau approach “toast” Yaacov with an Army lead by 400 officers. NaCH precedents D’vorah and HaDassah whose רשות מצוה defines the k’vanna of תפילת ערבית according to rabbi Yehoshua. Av tohor time-oriented commandments learn from women that doing mitzvot with k’vanna — a רשות rather than a חיוב.
In the defence of the Reshonim: in the Gemara of ערבין the Baali Tosafot did not know how Rav Ashi could change the dispute between Rabbi Akiva and Rabbi Yose haGelili. According to the כלל, the halacha should follow the opinion of r. Akiva. The Baali Tosafot clearly did not have access to the Targum Uziel. Otherwise, they would have understood that Rav Ashi’s recognition that Uziel agreed with the opinion expressed by rabbi Yose haGelili and therefore changed the halacha expressed in that halachic dispute as recorded in the Gemara of ערובין.
Therefore, the First Book of the Torah serves as the אב טהור זימן גרמא מצוות. The second, third, and forth Books of the Torah serves as the תולדות מצוות; hence the B’hag ruled in his Hilchot G’dolot: that 100 blessings, nar shabbat, nar hannuka, kre’at m’gillah, etc qualify as mitzvot from the Torah!
The Rambam, whose Yad Chazaka perversion worshipped avoda zarah: understood as a) assimilation b) intermarriage with Goyim, as opposed to the Xtian abomination which erroneously translates avoda zarah as idolatry; the 30 year-war slaughtered as many as did WWI when western Europe’s population about 1/3rd of 20th Century Eupean populations, over a debate over the catholic cruxifics and worship of saints.
The Rambam abomination of avoda zarah assimilation to ancient Greek logic, that fool did not understand the kabbalah of how Rabbi Akiva’s פרדס interprets the k’vanna of the revelation of the Oral Torah at Horev. A most basic and fundamental error. Which has plagued Jewry down through the Ages.
The last and 5th Book of the Written Torah משנה תורה commands the generations to learn the Torah through the wisdom of common law ie Rabbi Yechuda and the Gemara sages as codified in the Talmud.
The gravity of ירידות הדורות avoda zara, this question fails to address the Midrashic scholarship which defines the contribution made by the Geonim. As a loom has a warp/weft relationship, the Talmud has halacha/aggadita relationship. Midrash functions as the Geonim scholarship which delved into the Aggadic portion of the Talmud. Yeshivot across the world do not know how to learn, not only Midrash as the primary source-commentary which links the דרוש-פשט with T’NaCH prophetic mussar; like as learns Rashi’s Chumash p’shat. As contrasted by the halachic Oral Torah logic of רמז-סוד. A most basic and fundamental error. Which has plagued Jewry down through the Ages.
So, how does this comment relate to the subject of the blog – democracy and rights?
Also, our last comment I asked for evidence of voter fraud.
Please either provide evidence of the voter fraud you claimed, or an explanation on how your very long commentary on the current misunderstanding of the Talmud is so very wrong relates to the subject of democracy and rights. If not, then I will delete.
Twitter kicking Trump off that platform as well as a similar action by Face Book hamstrung the Trump campaign. It negated his ability to by-pass the MSM propaganda press. Ron Paul’s efforts to win the White House destroyed by the domination of the MSM propaganda press. Add to this the suppression of the Hunter Biden laptop scandal. Which permitted Biden to deny knowledge of it in his debate with Trump. Based upon how the FBI decision to publish Hillery’s email corruption 10 days before the election destroyed her campaign and significantly contributed to her ’16 loss to Trump the clear underdog prior to Comey’s publication of that material!
The classic Torah culture does not promote democracy. The 2nd Republic Common wealth a republic NOT a democracy. But judicial common law does promote and protect the rights of the citizens of Judea to expect that the lateral common law courts would pursue fair compensation of damages which Jews of the Republic inflicted upon other Jews of the Republic.
Better.
Now, all that you said is not the same as voter fraud. You claimed that there was voter fraud.
I would also dispute many of your statements in there – for example the Hunter Biden laptop. I agree that the release of the FBI investigation publicly hurt her campaign – and by the way, that violated the standards for FBI on going investigations. However, she won the popular vote by over 2 million votes. She barely lost the electoral vote by 10,000 votes spread across four states. Yet all the things you said that was done to trump resulted in him losing by far more than Hillary did. I would also say that those are not equivalents either – the FBI investigation and Twitter and such.
You also ignore the fact that trump had several media outlets pushing for him and pushing his narrative – Fox news being most prominent, but many others. And the MSM were not as united against him as you make out. It may appear that way because they were trying to be objective and factual in reporting, which is something most trump supporters do not want.
Finally, in regards to the Talmud and democracy. If it does not promote democracy then not sure how it relates to this blog. As I have said, this is religious law regulating how things should be done within Judaism. Something you seem to be agreeing to when you said this, ” lateral common law courts would pursue fair compensation of damages which Jews of the Republic inflicted upon other Jews of the Republic.” Jews to Jews.
Bill i do not live in America. But President Trump says voter fraud occurred and I accept his take. America a Republic. Democracy not used in either the Declaration of Independence nor in the Constitutions – both Articles of Confederation & current Constitution established in 1789. Hence democracy plays 2nd fiddle to Republic as guaranteed by the Electorial College. Meaning Clinton won California by a huge electorial margin. But the California vote does not over-shadow the smaller – population wise – other 49 States of the Republic. Trump won the 270 electorial votes required to win the election. Not the first time in US history that this has happened.
ABC NBC CNN the major MSM media totally against Trump. 3+ years of mad Cow Maddow’s Russia-gate slander. The worthless comedy of late-night like Stephen Colbert. So Faux Noise gave tepid support to Trump after he whooped the Neo-Cons in the Primaries. But Faux did not support Trump as their first and primary GOP candidate.
The Judean republic compares to the American republic. The founding fathers forged the 13 States into a Republic based upon the 12 Tribes forged into an oath brit Republic.
Judea a Jewish republic flat out without any question. The lateral common law courtrooms bear a resemblance to the lateral jury system which the American legal system bi-passed the bribery of State salaried Judges and prosecuting attorneys.
So, even though the courts have said there is none, even though election officials of both parties have said there are none, even though millions have said there is none, you are going to put your blind faith in the words of the loser, a man who is well known for lying more than any current politician in the US. Wow.
As for Republic – a Republic is the same thing as a Democracy. There are many different forms of Democracy. A Republic is one such. You will find that in the writings and words of the men who created the US Constitution.
As for Hillary – no. California is not the reason she won those large numbers. Remember, I pointed out that it was a difference of 10,000 votes split between four states. If theses 10,000 votes, 2500 per state, had been for Hillary she would have won the electoral vote too.
As for the media – as I said before, those supporting trump usually view honest and factual reporting as being lies against trump. The problem is with your ability to handle the truth.
And Fox most certainly did very strongly support him. Especially have he became the Republican nominee.
You state that the founding fathers created the US based upon the 12 tribes – however nowhere in the deliberations or their writings do you find mention of the 12 tribes. None. Seems that this claim of yours is as baseless as that of your claim that there was election fraud.
And, again, Judea was not a Republic. It does not compare at all. Please explain how they are similar if you think differently.
Bill your perception of the Administration of President Trump, clearly I do not understand. Not interested in your personal attacks against a man you do not know. Your failure to address Trump policies in Office speaks volumes.
I cannot address Faux noise b/c I do not waste my time with such worthless treif tripe.
The similarity between the Republic of the 12 Tribes and the Republic of the 13 States seems obvious to me.
Google commonwealth, a reference to Republic. Here shall save your the problem
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republics_in_the_Commonwealth_of_Nations
Your vacuum declarations seem totally obtuse to me Bill. Nothing personal
My perception of trump is based upon a large amount of information and facts. As for not addressing his policies, would not mind that at all. However, you never brought up his policies, only the claim of voter fraud. I have addressed his policies many times in my blogs and in other places by the way.
In regards to the similarities between the 12 tribes and the US being obvious to you. Thats nice. To a flat earther it is also obvious that the earth is flat. Doesn’t mean it is though.
Your reference to the commonweath is puzzling. Not sure hwy you thought that relevant or what you thought it meant in our conversation.